To forum używa ciasteczek.
To forum używa ciasteczek do przechowywania informacji o Twoim zalogowaniu jeśli jesteś zarejestrowanym użytkownikiem, albo o ostatniej wizycie jeśli nie jesteś. Ciasteczka są małymi plikami tekstowymi przechowywanymi na Twoim komputerze; ciasteczka ustawiane przez to forum mogą być wykorzystywane wyłącznie przez nie i nie stanowią zagrożenia bezpieczeństwa. Ciasteczka na tym forum śledzą również przeczytane przez Ciebie tematy i kiedy ostatnio je odwiedzałeś/odwiedzałaś. Proszę, potwierdź czy chcesz pozwolić na przechowywanie ciasteczek.

Niezależnie od Twojego wyboru, na Twoim komputerze zostanie ustawione ciasteczko aby nie wyświetlać Ci ponownie tego pytania. Będziesz mógł/mogła zmienić swój wybór w dowolnym momencie używając linka w stopce strony.

Ocena wątku:
  • 0 głosów - średnia: 0
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery]
Ponieważ pilaster wyskakuje tu ze swoimi tureckimi problemami itd. to pozwolę sobie przypomnieć pewien artykuł, który doskonale pokazuje, co jest nie tak z tymi ostatnimi sezonami GoT:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/obs...redirect=1

Cytat:At its best, GOT was a beast as rare as a friendly dragon in King’s Landing: it was sociological and institutional storytelling in a medium dominated by the psychological and the individual. This structural storytelling era of the show lasted through the seasons when it was based on the novels by George R. R. Martin, who seemed to specialize in having characters evolve in response to the broader institutional settings, incentives and norms that surround them.

After the show ran ahead of the novels, however, it was taken over by powerful Hollywood showrunners David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Some fans and critics have been assuming that the duo changed the narrative to fit Hollywood tropes or to speed things up, but that’s unlikely. In fact, they probably stuck to the narrative points that were given to them, if only in outline form, by the original author. What they did is something different, but in many ways more fundamental: Benioff and Weiss steer the narrative lane away from the sociological and shifted to the psychological. That’s the main, and often only, way Hollywood and most television writers tell stories.


This is an important shift to dissect because whether we tell our stories primarily from a sociological or psychological point of view has great consequences for how we deal with our world and the problems we encounter.

I encounter this shortcoming a lot in my own area of writing—technology and society. Our inability to understand and tell sociological stories is one of the key reasons we’re struggling with how to respond to the historic technological transition we’re currently experiencing with digital technology and machine intelligence—but more on all that later. Let’s first go over what happened to Game of Thrones.


It’s easy to miss this fundamental narrative lane change and blame the series’ downturn on plain old bad writing by Benioff and Weiss—partly because they are genuinely bad at it. They didn’t just switch the explanatory dynamics of the story, they did a terrible job in the new lane as well.

One could, for example, easily focus on the abundance of plot holes. The dragons, for example seem to switch between comic-book indestructible to vulnerable from one episode to another. And it was hard to keep a straight face when Jaime Lannister ended up on a tiny cove along a vast, vast shoreline at the exact moment the villain Euron Greyjoy swam to that very point from his sinking ship to confront him. How convenient!

Similarly, character arcs meticulously drawn over many seasons seem to have been abandoned on a whim, turning the players into caricatures instead of personalities. Brienne of Tarth seems to exist for no reason, for example; Tyrion Lannister is all of a sudden turned into a murderous snitch while also losing all his intellectual gifts (he hasn’t made a single correct decision the entire season). And who knows what on earth is up with Bran Stark, except that he seems to be kept on as some sort of extra Stark?

But all that is surface stuff. Even if the new season had managed to minimize plot holes and avoid clunky coincidences and a clumsy Arya ex machina as a storytelling device, they couldn’t persist in the narrative lane of the past seasons. For Benioff and Weiss, trying to continue what Game of Thrones had set out to do, tell a compelling sociological story, would be like trying to eat melting ice cream with a fork. Hollywood mostly knows how to tell psychological, individualized stories. They do not have the right tools for sociological stories, nor do they even seem to understand the job.

(...)

One clue is clearly the show’s willingness to kill off major characters, early and often, without losing the thread of the story. TV shows that travel in the psychological lane rarely do that because they depend on viewers identifying with the characters and becoming invested in them to carry the story, rather than looking at the bigger picture of the society, institutions and norms that we interact with and which shape us. They can’t just kill major characters because those are the key tools with which they’re building the story and using as hooks to hold viewers.

In contrast, Game of Thrones killed Ned Stark abruptly at the end of the first season, after building the whole season and, by implication, the entire series around him. The second season developed a replacement Stark heir, which appeared like a more traditional continuation of the narrative. The third season, however, had him and his pregnant wife murdered in a particularly bloody way. And so it went. The story moved on; many characters did not.

The appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling, where a single charismatic and/or powerful individual, along with his or her internal dynamics, doesn’t carry the whole narrative and explanatory burden. Given the dearth of such narratives in fiction and in TV, this approach clearly resonated with a large fan base that latched on to the show.

In sociological storytelling, the characters have personal stories and agency, of course, but those are also greatly shaped by institutions and events around them. The incentives for characters’ behavior come noticeably from these external forces, too, and even strongly influence their inner life.

People then fit their internal narrative to align with their incentives, justifying and rationalizing their behavior along the way. (Thus the famous Upton Sinclair quip: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”)

The overly personal mode of storytelling or analysis leaves us bereft of deeper comprehension of events and history. Understanding Hitler’s personality alone will not tell us much about rise of fascism, for example. Not that it didn’t matter, but a different demagogue would probably have appeared to take his place in Germany in between the two bloody world wars in the 20th century. Hence, the answer to “would you kill baby Hitler?,” sometimes presented as an ethical time-travel challenge, should be “no,” because it would very likely not matter much. It is not a true dilemma.

(...)That tension between internal stories and desires, psychology and external pressures, institutions, norms and events was exactly what Game of Thrones showed us for many of its characters, creating rich tapestries of psychology but also behavior that was neither saintly nor fully evil at any one point. It was something more than that: you could understand why even the characters undertaking evil acts were doing what they did, how their good intentions got subverted, and how incentives structured behavior. The complexity made it much richer than a simplistic morality tale, where unadulterated good fights with evil.

The hallmark of sociological storytelling is if it can encourage us to put ourselves in the place of any character, not just the main hero/heroine, and imagine ourselves making similar choices. “Yeah, I can see myself doing that under such circumstances” is a way into a broader, deeper understanding. It’s not just empathy: we of course empathize with victims and good people, not with evildoers.

(...)Tellingly, season eight shocked many viewers by … not initially killing off the main characters. It was the first big indicator of their shift—that they were putting the weight of the story on the individual and abandoning the sociological. In that vein, they had fan-favorite characters pull off stunts we could root and cheer for, like Arya Stark killing the Night King in a somewhat improbable fashion.

For seven seasons, the show had focused on the sociology of what an external, otherized threat—such as the Night King, the Army of the Undead and the Winter to Come—would do to competing rivalries within the opposing camp. Having killed one of the main sociological tensions that had animated the whole series with one well-placed knife-stab, Benioff and Weiss then turned to ruining the other sociological tension: the story of the corruption of power.

This corruption of power was crucially illustrated in Cersei Lannister’s rise and evolution from victim (if a selfish one) to evil actor, and this was clearly meant also to be the story of her main challenger, Daenerys Targaryen. Dany had started out wanting to be the breaker of chains, with moral choices weighing heavily on her, and season by season, we have witnessed her, however reluctantly, being shaped by the tools that were available to her and that she embraced: war, dragons, fire.

Done right, it would have been a fascinating and dynamic story: rivals transforming into each other as they seek absolute power with murderous tools, one starting from a selfish perspective (her desire to have her children rule) and the other from an altruistic one (her desire to free slaves and captive people, of which she was once one).

The corruption of power is one of the most important psychosocial dynamics behind many important turning points in history, and in how the ills of society arise. In response, we have created elections, checks and balances, and laws and mechanisms that constrain the executive.

Destructive historical figures often believe that they must stay in power because it is they, and only they, who can lead the people—and that any alternative would be calamitous. Leaders tend to get isolated, become surrounded by sycophants and succumb easily to the human tendency to self-rationalize. There are several examples in history of a leader who starts in opposition with the best of intentions, like Dany, and ends up acting brutally and turning into a tyrant if they take power.

Told sociologically, Dany’s descent into a cruel mass-murderer would have been a strong and riveting story. Yet in the hands of two writers who do not understand how to advance the narrative in that lane, it became ridiculous. She attacks King’s Landing with Drogon, her dragon, and wins, with the bells of the city ringing in surrender. Then, suddenly, she goes on a rampage because, somehow, her tyrannical genes turn on.

Varys, the advisor who will die for trying to stop Dany, says to Tyrion that “every time a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.” That is straight-up and simplistic genetic determinism, rather than what we had been witnessing for the past seven seasons. Again, sociological stories don’t discount the personal, psychological and even the genetic, but the key point is that they are more than “coin tosses”—they are complex interactions with emergent consequences: the way the world actually works.

In interviews after that episode, Benioff and Weiss confess that they turned it into a spontaneous moment. Weiss says, “ I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”

Benioff and Weiss were almost certainly given the “Mad Queen” ending to Game of Thrones by the original writer, George R. R. Martin. For them, however, this was the eating-ice-cream-with-a-fork problem I mentioned above. They could keep the story, but not the storytelling method. They could only make it into a momentary turn that is part spontaneous psychology and part deterministic genetics. (...)

Czyli pilaster łapiący się na tanie scenariuszowe sztuczki zarzucający innym oglądanie tureckich seriali poraz kolejny się ośmiesza Uśmiech
Dopóki rodzimy się i umieramy, póki światło jest w nas, warto się wkurwiać, trzeba się wkurwiać! Wciąż i wciąż od nowa.
Odpowiedz


Wiadomości w tym wątku
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 01.06.2015, 07:59
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 18.06.2015, 10:06
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 18.06.2015, 10:27
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 19.06.2015, 09:17
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 19.06.2015, 10:40
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 19.06.2015, 13:26
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 19.06.2015, 14:29
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 20.06.2015, 22:18
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 28.01.2016, 10:53
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 28.01.2016, 13:38
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 28.01.2016, 16:53
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 26.04.2016, 08:35
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 27.04.2016, 08:09
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 27.04.2016, 10:01
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 05.05.2016, 07:58
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 05.05.2016, 12:59
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 06.05.2016, 14:00
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 09.05.2016, 09:18
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 16.05.2016, 10:21
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 17.05.2016, 09:28
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 16.05.2016, 19:14
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 17.05.2016, 15:35
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 27.05.2016, 09:09
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 31.05.2016, 08:03
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 01.06.2016, 19:18
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 02.06.2016, 08:44
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 02.06.2016, 09:14
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 03.06.2016, 09:46
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 06.06.2016, 07:40
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 07.06.2016, 07:48
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 07.06.2016, 08:28
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.06.2016, 09:43
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.06.2016, 10:24
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.06.2016, 11:09
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 28.06.2016, 20:04
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 01.08.2017, 09:11
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 01.08.2016, 12:19
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 01.08.2016, 13:49
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 01.08.2016, 15:05
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 02.08.2016, 10:07
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 02.08.2016, 11:17
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 18.07.2017, 08:43
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 19.07.2017, 10:52
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 25.07.2017, 08:48
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 02.08.2017, 07:50
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.08.2017, 12:19
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 09.08.2017, 15:59
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 09.08.2017, 16:58
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 31.08.2017, 07:13
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 05.11.2017, 13:49
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 07.11.2017, 14:51
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 13.11.2017, 18:41
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.11.2017, 14:59
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 16.11.2017, 09:08
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 15.11.2017, 13:27
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 18.04.2019, 10:18
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 19.04.2019, 07:50
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 18.04.2019, 11:50
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 18.04.2019, 13:31
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 07.05.2019, 07:19
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.05.2019, 07:24
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.05.2019, 10:07
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.05.2019, 14:33
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.05.2019, 16:58
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 09.05.2019, 07:26
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 13.05.2019, 11:35
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 15.05.2019, 07:47
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 15.05.2019, 08:19
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 21.05.2019, 09:24
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 21.05.2019, 12:46
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 30.05.2019, 14:44
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.01.2020, 11:57
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.01.2020, 12:34
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.01.2020, 14:09
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.01.2020, 15:39
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.01.2020, 12:17
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.01.2020, 12:45
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.01.2020, 12:53
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.01.2020, 11:00
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.01.2020, 08:27
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 09.01.2020, 10:21
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 08.01.2020, 16:41
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 10.01.2020, 08:50
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 10.01.2020, 12:13
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez cobras - 13.01.2020, 12:54
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 22.01.2020, 15:52
RE: Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 22.01.2020, 16:02
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Furia - 12.06.2013, 23:09
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Fizyk - 12.06.2013, 23:21
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Fizyk - 12.06.2013, 23:58
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez su27 - 13.06.2013, 10:31
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 13.06.2013, 13:04
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez su27 - 13.06.2013, 13:13
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Grim - 13.06.2013, 17:52
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Fizyk - 13.06.2013, 19:56
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Grim - 13.06.2013, 21:53
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.06.2013, 09:37
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Fizyk - 14.06.2013, 11:21
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.06.2013, 11:31
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.06.2013, 15:25
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.06.2013, 15:41
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 14.06.2013, 17:09
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Grim - 14.06.2013, 22:17
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 15.06.2013, 11:57
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 15.06.2013, 16:24
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 16.06.2013, 09:34
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 16.06.2013, 12:10
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 16.06.2013, 12:55
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 16.06.2013, 16:54
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 18.06.2013, 16:42
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez su27 - 21.06.2013, 13:06
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 23.07.2013, 15:22
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 23.07.2013, 15:43
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.07.2013, 08:11
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Grim - 24.07.2013, 18:09
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.07.2013, 20:46
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 20.01.2014, 10:07
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 22.01.2014, 11:18
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 26.01.2014, 17:25
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 27.01.2014, 09:33
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.02.2014, 14:16
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.02.2014, 15:44
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.04.2014, 08:36
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.04.2014, 10:34
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.04.2014, 12:16
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.04.2014, 14:31
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 24.04.2014, 18:32
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Argen - 24.04.2014, 22:02
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Argen - 25.04.2014, 01:42
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Argen - 25.04.2014, 22:13
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Argen - 26.04.2014, 00:44
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 29.04.2014, 08:03
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 29.04.2014, 08:31
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 29.04.2014, 19:24
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 06.05.2014, 08:03
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 26.05.2014, 08:26
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 30.05.2014, 09:08
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 30.05.2014, 14:12
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 14.09.2014, 15:49
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 15.09.2014, 07:40
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 15.09.2014, 10:47
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez zefciu - 20.10.2014, 11:06
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Xeo95 - 25.03.2015, 02:05
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez Boom - 31.03.2015, 03:07
Gra o Tron - co w tym jest? [spoilery] - przez lorak - 21.04.2015, 09:55

Skocz do:


Użytkownicy przeglądający ten wątek: 1 gości